>So Ninja, what do you
call what you do?
Broadly, I call
it "infiltration",
which encompasses
both urban exploration
and social interaction
for the purposes
of getting somewhere
off-limits and interesting.
It’s like navigating
structures but also
navigating people.
Urban exploration
also includes buildering,
draining and vadding.
^return to top
>Vadding?
That's the word
MIT students adopted
for real-world hacking
- many use it for
exploring tunnels,
more specifically
college steam tunnels.
I’m interested
that there’s
a new slang growing,
which is why I put
a
glossary
on my site.
^return to top
>So do you see any similarities
between infiltration
and hacking?
Infiltration and
non-harmful computer
hacking are extremely
similar. Both are
motivated by the
desire to look around
and do a bit of exploring.
Both use many of
the same tactics,
like intense observation,
and trial and error,
to accomplish their
goals. Both are usually
illegal in spite
of being victimless.
^return to top
>Would you say urban explorers
form a big community?
Tough to say.
I certainly think
the community is
growing. Ten years
ago I don't think
anyone would have
described themselves
as being an urban
explorer, whereas
today I suspect there
are probably a few
hundred people who
would claim that
title.
^return to top
>It all seems very serious.
What gave you
that impression?
Almost every explorer
I talk to shares
my attitude that
the hobby is ridiculously
fun.
^return to top
>Ridiculously
fun? Can you explain
the buzz?
Broadly, most
see cities as places
to live and work
- but for me there's
a real joy in them
as fascinating playgrounds
full of wonderful
toys to dive below,
climb on top of or
crawl into.
Urban explorers
get the thrill of
treating each structure
as a puzzle-filled
adventure game. They
also get increased
understanding of
the way the structures
around them operate.
I think it gives
them fantastic new
perspectives on their
environs.
Since urban
exploration
requires its
participants
to be hyper
alert and observant
in order to
get in and out
in one piece,
urban explorers
tend to really
notice the world
around them
much more than
most people.
Urban explorers
walk down city
streets like
they're in a
museum, noticing
and understanding
small details
of architecture
and infrastructure
that everyone
around them
ignores. It's
a fantastic
way to perceive
the world. You'll
notice urban
explorers are
often excellent
photographers
- I think this
hyper observant
perspective
is the reason
why.
^return to top
>Yeh,
we’ve seen that
in our photographers.
They seem to have
a real eye for resonant
detail, say of faded
wallpaper, or patterns
in old plaster.From
your website
you seem to be interested
in exploring derelict
buildings. Do you
also do stuff like
climbing and such
like?
I'd say my main
interest is in inhabited
buildings - places
like hospitals, train
stations and hotels.
I like to have a
little social interaction
along with my exploration.
That said, I do
love exploring abandoned
buildings. One of
my favourite spots
in the world is the
Buffalo Central Terminal,
a gigantic 20-storey-tall
building in the suburbs
of Buffalo, New York,
which has been abandoned
and obsolete since
trains stopped running
past it a couple
decades ago. I love
the challenge of
getting in, as the
city always seem
to board it up and
block it off a different
way. I've been there
seven or eight times
and I don't know
if I've ever gone
in the same entrance
twice.
I love navigating
the tunnels under
the station, or climbing
up onto the roof
and earning a fantastic
view of the whole
region. I can almost
always find new areas
I've never discovered
before. The building,
in spite of being
flooded and burned
and spray painted
and having every
other window in the
place smashed, is
still the most magnificent,
dignified building
for miles around.
I love the sense
of history in the
place, which is still
filled with old desks
and cabinets and
rail schedules.
Once while I was
exploring I met an
elderly couple who'd
wandered in an open
door to take a look
at the building's
Great Hall. They
talked about how
beautiful and busy
the place used to
be, and pointed out
where the various
shops had once been
and so on. The woman
related the story
of how her husband
had been killed while
working on the building's
utility systems,
and the man talked
about how he remembered
standing in the Great
Hall taking his last
view of his home
town before his train
arrived to take him
off during WWII.
All of that is
woven into that fantastic
structure, and you
can still really
feel that ambiance
when you're there.
^return to top
>Were the old couple surprised
to see you?
I think they were
surprised but not
alarmed - I'm not
very intimidating.
^return to top
>You
say you like a little
social interaction.
I can imagine that
must be along the
lines of, “What
the hell are you
doing here?!”
It depends how
sharp I am. In an
ideal situation I
would be the one
initiating the conversation,
rather than the employee,
and I would somehow
manage to convey
to the employee that
I had every right
to be there, so there
would be no need
for the employee
to ask me what I
was doing there.
Like, if you’re
sneaking into a hotel
pool, it's best to
walk right up to
the attendant and
ask where you should
get changed before
they have a chance
to ask if you're
a guest of the hotel.
Your question - if
asked with enough
confidence - makes
their question unnecessary.
^return to top
>What
would you want to
happen to the Buffalo
building?
Nothing. I love
it the way it is.
I don't think it's
in any danger of
being demolished,
and it would pain
me greatly to see
it turned into something
commercial and -
undoubtedly - sterile.
^return to top
>There seems
to be differences
in 'urban exploration'
by country.
The Brits seem
obsessed by
WW2
secret command
bunkers,
Parisians
seem to go for
serious tunnelling .
There seems
to be a lot
of Canadian
and American
interest among
younger people,
like students.
What's your
impression of
the global scene?
Yeah, you've
pretty much
got the stereotypes
right, except
that Britons
are also known
for liking transit
tunnels, and
perhaps for
being more concerned
about legality
than the rest
of the world,
and you didn't
mention the
Australian
fondness for
storm drains
and bridge rooms.
While they’ve
taught us about
those locations,
North Americans
are teaching
the world about
abandoned buildings
and college
tunnels and
Europeans are
teaching the
world about
military bunkers
and transit
tunnels.
Urban
explorers worldwide
are increasingly
likely to dabble
in a bit of everything,
largely thanks to
the Internet and
a few
urban
exploration-related
publications.
^return to top
>You
obviously enjoy what
you do, but do you
see what you do as
liberating for others,
or just yourself?
I
think urban exploration
is a liberating experience
for anyone who chooses
to engage in it.
I'm often surprised
by people's willingness
to go along with
the idea that they're
not allowed to look
around heritage sites
unless they pay huge
admission fees in
order to shuffle
around inside a maze
of velvet ropes until
they're emptied out
into a gift shop,
which is the only
place they're allowed
to actually touch
or interact with
anything.
It amazes me that
so many people go
along with the idea
that it's somehow
morally wrong to
enter virtually any
urban location except
"on business".
I mean, it's an absurd
notion - people have
a right to look around
their environment.
^return to top
>Yeh,
the 'velvet ropes'
thing is particularly
acute in the UK.
So why is urban exploration
liberating?
It's breaking
free of the maze.
It's realizing you
don't have to live
in two-dimensions
and only go where
you're supposed to
- that at any moment
you can wander into
the nearest skyscraper
and shoot up thirty
storeys for a better
view, or find a ladder
down into some tunnels
to take a shortcut
or view the world
from below, or find
some abandoned building
that's going neglected
and make it your
playground. That
you can go wherever
you want to go.
^return to top
>Why
do people 'have a
right'? They clearly
don't in law. Do
you care about the
law?
In my opinion,
people are born with
a natural right to
look around the place
they live in, and
the vast majority
continue to earn
that right throughout
their lives by paying
municipal taxes,
participating in
the commercial and
political life of
their city, and taking
some role in maintaining
their city.
I tend to decide
whether or not I
should do something
based on morals rather
than law. I wouldn't
trespass into a small
business or someone's
home, because that's
impolite, but you
would have a very
tough time convincing
me that there is
something wrong with
doing something that
harms absolutely
no one - such as
exploring a drain
or visiting an abandoned
building. The only
person I'm possibly
harming is myself,
and if it's wrong
to risk your own
health, then there
should be laws against
smoking, white water
rafting, parachute
jumping, bungee jumping,
scuba diving and
driving, any of which
are more dangerous
than what I do.
^return to top
>So
have you had any
problems with the
law?
Employees and
security guards have
been annoyed with
me on many occasions,
but I've only really
had a problem with
the police once.
Some associates and
I popped out of a
manhole cover in
the wrong spot at
the wrong time and
were promptly issued
trespassing tickets.
^return to top
>What
about the people
who got into the
missile silo thing.
Didn’t they
get a custodial?
Kevin Kelm, who
wrote the about his
missile silo trip
in
Infiltration
7, was charged
with second degree
criminal trespass,
which certainly sounds
very nasty, though
I suspect his fine
was probably pretty
mild. We don't really
have many military
leftovers here in
Canada, so I've stayed
out of that sort
of trouble.
^return to top
>A
moment ago, you compared
infiltration to activities
like white water
rafting. Do you see
what you do as an
extreme sport?
No, definitely
not. Some people
have tried to paint
urban exploration
in this light, but
it's usually people
outside the community
who don't know about
how much time we
spend researching
and studying blueprints
in libraries and
archives, or how
much time we spend
reading about and
discussing architecture
and infrastructure.
When journalists
do a story on urban
exploration, they
tend to report on
the spectacular underground
waterfalls or skyscraper
rooftops that urban
explorers find once
in a blue moon rather
than on the utility
closets and parking
garages that are
our bread and butter.
It's really a pretty
geeky and antisocial
hobby, really, but
I guess showing those
aspects wouldn't
make for exciting
photo spreads.
^return to top
>Is
your exploration
some kind of artistic
or political statement?
No, I'm not really
making a statement
in exploring. I explore
in pursuit of fun,
and I make the political
argument that I,
and others, should
feel free to do so.
I don't think exploring
is art unless one
stretches the definition
of art so far that
it becomes meaningless.
^return to top
>Do
you hope to lead
by example?
I don't really
hope to lead, just
to suggest.
Thank
you for your time.
Good luck for your
next Infiltration!
Cheers, Ninj.
© Ben Bruges
2002
Visit Ninj's site: Infiltration.org
